EV discussion: Spark, Leaf, Volt...

[IMPUL]

Pollution per capita(car) is what I meant. And that rant is the result of binge watching parks n rec while taking t3. Lol.
The point I was trying to make without saying was if "pollution" from vehicles with the problem we should start with "REAL" offenders.
Planes, cargo ships/supertankers, cruiseships, etc. but that would be the responsibility, and burden on businesses. But instead we the ppl have to pay ridiculous amounts for an EV and businesses are getting subsidized income.

I was also pointing out that "zero emissions" doesn't mean zero.. That's all it's misleading. And to do all that so private citizens can be more Eco friendly while selling carbon credits so businesses can emit more pollution is a slap in the face.

I'm not saying gas is good, but it's not going away and there are better ways to hold the polluters responsible, and let them pay to fix it. EV's are like taxing the poor, to subsidized the rich

[AlphaMicra]

Wow. There are a bunch of government rebates for buying a EV. Literally thousands of $.
There's one for buy it, one for buying a at home charity station another for installing it. They get special plates, use HOV lanes.

Why is the government "basically" giving money to businesses for EV like this?

Because one of the roles of government is to attract and stimulate new viable economic sectors and demonstrate to the world that we are forward thinking. If our government wasn't like this, we'd still be shoveling horse**** off our roads.

So the cost of the car is high but you get a rebate, you "get" money, but really that probably helped sell you on the higher price for "being earth friendly and saving us all from our certain doom" so the car dealer made the sale and made lots of money.

Until the economies of scale kick in, rebates are necessary to help the new economic sectors compete with existing ones. Without these rebates, we become entrenched in the old ways of doing things while the rest of the world passes us by. The economic crisis in Alberta is a perfect demonstration as to why we need to diversify our economy.

You have to buy a new battery in 5 years so it's a good thing you have $5000 laying around .. More money to the dealer...

Batteries that will become much cheaper once those economies of scale kick in.

Now the charger. Pricey.. Or is it after it's 50% to a max of $500 rebate.. How much does it cost you ask.. Coincidentally enough about $1000... Which is funny cuz it looks like something an amateur weekend electrician could make for $300 or less.

Yes, but if the amateur weekend electrician decided to get his home-made charger certified by CSA and other safety agencies and then had to buy the insurance necessary to protect himself if he is sued by someone who's house burned down because his charger had a fault he overlooked, the price would likely be...oh, around $1000.

And install.. Same rebate if installed by a licensed electrician ( *slow clap* job creation ) I bet it also costs about $1000.
But again a simple job that most ppl with basic electrical knowledge could do. White to white, black to black etc.

You demonstrate your ignorance by suggesting that the identified neutral wire would be used in a residential 240 volt car charging circuit. Your "basic electrical knowledge" just caused your house to burn down because you didn't wire the charger correctly. Now you try to make an insurance claim, but guess what? Your claim is denied. You didn't even know what gauge of wire and size of breaker to use. Better stick with the 120 volt charger if you want to stick with your basic electrical knowledge; it probably came with the car.

Now this "zero emission" stuff is funny. Cuz the batteries alone travel all of the world to be extracted, refined, built, installed. Same with the copper and materials for the engine/motor.
Which will be the bottle neck in EV cars wed probably use the worlds supply trying to save the world with electric car motors. All made all over the place then assembled in another place then shipped to be sold from another place. It would literally be more "green" to not have done that, and just used what we have already created. Not to mention, how do we electricity? The laws of thermodynamics says it must be transferred from something. And even if it was "green" it probably really wasn't.

While I agree with you about the initial resources needed for EV's need to be pulled out of the ground, much of it can be recycled. The mining, refining, and recycling of those resources represents a global generator of diversified economic stimulus. As for how do we electricity, one of the largest untapped resources in Canada is hydro electric. Niagara Falls has been a natural, great big green provider of energy for a long time. Nice place to visit, too.

Just like it would have been more fiscally responsible to banish the drive clean a few years ago after the program had paid for itself. But instead it expanded, become more intrusive with less practical results. the sniffer actually READS tail pipe emissions, the odb test simple tells you if the sensors are working. *Wink* I think VW showed us that. Oh and by the way, those ships carrying batteries and materials and EV cars all over the earth are way bigger polluters then our cars.

The drive clean program definitely demonstrates faults in our current political system that needs to be addressed, and, as far as I'm concerned, only the tip of the iceberg. As for the ships carrying batteries and materials for EV's, I don't think they really compare yet to the tankers shipping oil. I think it's a reach to call EV's bigger polluters than automobiles. Again, I point out that the economies of scale are in favour of typical ICE cars, to the point where we are often blind to the expense of infrastructure in place for petroleum powered vehicles.

So these shops are getting paid right? They actually don't make much and inspections are going to hurt shops now too, with this stricter and more in depth safetys.

Actually, an annual safety inspection makes more sense than a bi-annual emission test.

So the big auto companies and unions are happy, but smaller shops have to twist the arms of ppl with older cars. Seem like a good reason buy new and avoid the hassle right?!?

Companies want to make money, unions want to make sure their members get their fair share of that pie. I doubt either care whether they're building buggies and whips or hover cars powered by Mr. Fusion.

I'm not even going to get into selling carbon credits. But "F" "green" initiatives .. They are about the wrong kinda green ..

Yes; in fact, why not turn back the clock and go back to shoveling horse**** from our roads?

[IMPUL]

Diversify the economy yes... But aren't EV's part of the auto sector. Which is a rather large part of the economy, and EVs being almost as niche as RHD vehicles means that they don't really diversify much.

Electrical knowledge, meaning from a book, meaning you wouldn't just be blindly connecting wires without knowledge. But yes you got me, while I was making a very generalized statement, I only mentioned 2 of the 4 possible wires and ya if only those 2 were connected ... I guess that was poor wording. It was 1:30am and I was dopey from t3s for my wisdom teeth. I've hard wired my sub panel for my garage several times.

The safety vs etest makes more sense to lessen pollution? I agree it makes more sense in general and for public safety, not sure what the safety inspection would do for pollution. A tuneup with o2sensor and new plugs wouldn't hurt.

The amount of work they have to do now for the inspection leaves shops with 3 options, 1. Charge more to cover the costs for the extra time. 2. Suck it up and lose money. 3. Charge the same and rush thru it thus missing things.


What more to you want from Niagara Falls? There are multiple generators producing energy from it. Should we just redirect all of it?

I agree that we should be more reliant on renewable resources, I just don't think batteries are it.

And no I don't want to shovel poop, I'd rather ride the mono rail...

[AlphaMicra]

Diversify the economy yes... But aren't EV's part of the auto sector. Which is a rather large part of the economy, and EVs being almost as niche as RHD vehicles means that they don't really diversify much.

The auto sector is but one vector to a variety of other sectors. For example, did you know that some of the companies that manufacture components for car audio also manufacture components for home hi-fi systems? There are plenty of cross-sector economies covered by automobile manufacturing, and it only makes sense to expand on this economic powerhouse.

Electrical knowledge, meaning from a book, meaning you wouldn't just be blindly connecting wires without knowledge. But yes you got me, while I was making a very generalized statement, I only mentioned 2 of the 4 possible wires and ya if only those 2 were connected ... I guess that was poor wording. It was 1:30am and I was dopey from t3s for my wisdom teeth. I've hard wired my sub panel for my garage several times.

I sincerely hope you never need to make an insurance claim due to a fault in your sub panel, and if you do, that it was wired by a master electrician who purchased an insurance policy that would pay out and cover your loss in the event of a claim.

The safety vs etest makes more sense to lessen pollution? I agree it makes more sense in general and for public safety, not sure what the safety inspection would do for pollution. A tuneup with o2sensor and new plugs wouldn't hurt.

Actually, there is a co-relation between road-worthiness and emissions. With the exception of certain Nazi-era companies, most automobile engines run reasonably clean well beyond the point that major safety components need replacement.

The amount of work they have to do now for the inspection leaves shops with 3 options, 1. Charge more to cover the costs for the extra time. 2. Suck it up and lose money. 3. Charge the same and rush thru it thus missing things.

Actually, a trained professional, through established methods, should be able to accurately provide a comprehensive report on any outstanding safety issues within a reasonable amount of time for precisely the same reason why Van Halen's rider stipulated that there be no brown M&M's.

What more to you want from Niagara Falls? There are multiple generators producing energy from it. Should we just redirect all of it?

In case you haven't noticed, Niagara Falls isn't the only waterway in the province. Opportunities abound for a more diversified power system.

I agree that we should be more reliant on renewable resources, I just don't think batteries are it.

Batteries aren't a renewable resource, they're simply the storage solution. Over the past 20 years, the trades have moved from heavy corded power tools to lightweight 18 and 20 volt cordless power tools for nearly every aspect of the building trade. The economies of scale have delivered in the professional power tool sector, and there's no reason to assume this wouldn't continue to scale on up.

And no I don't want to shovel poop, I'd rather ride the mono rail...

As long as that monorail is built between my house and where I work, I'm with you. Also, where I work can change from week to week, even day to day...I was working in a High Park neighbourhood in Toronto today, tomorrow I'll be in northwest Oshawa. Monorail is simply a glorified, overpriced version of the rail system that couldn't compete with the horse and buggy back in the day, so I suggest if that's what you want, you might consider an aluminum shovel to shovel the poop, as it's lighter and will result in less fatigue.

[AlphaMicra]

But it's GM... I'm not worried. In demographics where there is likely to be GM supporters, they drive trucks and full size cars/ SUVs .. Super minis belong to imports.

I disagree...GM is a global company, with a greater manufacturing presence in China than in North America right now. Also, General Motors is and always has been a foreign import company. They started in the United States of America, which is a foreign country to Canada. They bought the McLaughlin Buick company which was Canadian, and then decided to drop the McLaughlin name because it sounded too foreign. Today, an Equinox might be built in Canada, but its engine and other components other than its body are imported.