EV discussion: Spark, Leaf, Volt...

[IMPUL]

I think hybrid cars should be set up like F1 KERS system.
Until that's what it is, not interested.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1

And never a GM electric cars, NEVER...

[micrapolis]

hybrids are without a doubt, a stopgap measure. if you are able to charge at home (and that's a big if), then EVs are really the answer provided you can make the range and the price work for you.

the difference between EV and hybrid is a momentous leap compared to the paltry difference between gas car vs hybrid. so many DD advantages.

[AlphaMicra]

would you guys ever consider the volt? if that's too much money, maybe a used volt?

my only worry with a car with only 100 miles range is, when winter affects battery + extra a/c heating + hills.

Not a big fan of the Volt; all of her driving is well under 60 kilometres per day, so in her case the gas engine would never get used. All of my driving is well over 60 km per day, so I'd be using the engine every day, and it would be taxed with lugging around all that extra dead weight once the batteries die. I doubt her engine is even warmed up before she gets to work, so I think a pure electric car would make sense for her needs.

[MetroMPG]

Used Leafs are going for a steal these days. I've seen more than a few for $10-12k (3-4 years old) in the States anyway. Might be different here since Canadians tend not to buy EV's (per capita) nearly as much as Americans.

One thing to consider: winter range takes a huge hit. Don't forget to factor that in your research.

[micrapolis]

a word of warning on Leaf: they apparently have VERY minimal battery thermal management, thus leading to relatively fast range loss. apparently, this is why they are so cheap.

in contrast, i've read that GM is superconservative with thermal stuff, leading to better than forecasted range

and yes, i'd be careful with the winter's impact. But if you only commute like 30km or less, then don't worry.

[MetroMPG]

Thermal damage is apparently only a problem for cars that bake in very hot locales (e.g. the U.S. southwest desert ... Nevada etc). Batteries in temperate climates (e.g. all of Canada) are doing fine.

IMO, Nissan screwed up in a way by adding the "battery health" gauge to the instrument cluster. Every time a bar disappears, the owners have something new to worry about. No company adds a "your engine is going to need replacing" gauge to ICE cars!

[Howie]

No Metro, thats because in the case of us micra owners that have had ours replaced- you dont need a light. You will hear it. XD

I think the big "stop" for me to get an ev (my commute being 5km or so and an ocassional 20km run) is the lack of 120v charging options. I rent my home, so having an electrician come in and install 220v charger isnt practical. My housing rental would probably support it as they are trying to be a "green" company but there would be a significant amount of red tape to go through that I'm not intrested in going through.

[micrapolis]

yep, same with me.

if i could charge at home, i'd buy a used leaf because i know i can make the pitiful range work for me.

but i live in a rented apartment, no chargers at all.

[IMPUL]

Wow. There are a bunch of government rebates for buying a EV. Literally thousands of $.
There's one for buy it, one for buying a at home charity station another for installing it. They get special plates, use HOV lanes.

Why is the government "basically" giving money to businesses for EV like this?

So the cost of the car is high but you get a rebate, you "get" money, but really that probably helped sell you on the higher price for "being earth friendly and saving us all from our certain doom" so the car dealer made the sale and made lots of money.

You have to buy a new battery in 5 years so it's a good thing you have $5000 laying around .. More money to the dealer...

Now the charger. Pricey.. Or is it after it's 50% to a max of $500 rebate.. How much does it cost you ask.. Coincidentally enough about $1000... Which is funny cuz it looks like something an amateur weekend electrician could make for $300 or less.

And install.. Same rebate if installed by a licensed electrician ( *slow clap* job creation ) I bet it also costs about $1000.
But again a simple job that most ppl with basic electrical knowledge could do. White to white, black to black etc.

Now this "zero emission" stuff is funny. Cuz the batteries alone travel all of the world to be extracted, refined, built, installed. Same with the copper and materials for the engine/motor.
Which will be the bottle neck in EV cars wed probably use the worlds supply trying to save the world with electric car motors. All made all over the place then assembled in another place then shipped to be sold from another place. It would literally be more "green" to not have done that, and just used what we have already created. Not to mention, how do we electricity? The laws of thermodynamics says it must be transferred from something. And even if it was "green" it probably really wasn't.

Just like it would have been more fiscally responsible to banish the drive clean a few years ago after the program had paid for itself. But instead it expanded, become more intrusive with less practical results. the sniffer actually READS tail pipe emissions, the odb test simple tells you if the sensors are working. *Wink* I think VW showed us that. Oh and by the way, those ships carrying batteries and materials and EV cars all over the earth are way bigger polluters then our cars.

So these shops are getting paid right? They actually don't make much and inspections are going to hurt shops now too, with this stricter and more in depth safetys.

So the big auto companies and unions are happy, but smaller shops have to twist the arms of ppl with older cars. Seem like a good reason buy new and avoid the hassle right?!?

I'm not even going to get into selling carbon credits. But "F" "green" initiatives .. They are about the wrong kinda green ..

[micrapolis]

i have a feeling a post like that would come , so here's my response:

1) the subsidies for oil companies or oil consumption is to EV subsidies, what a blue whale is to a rodent. It is a whole nother world of $$$$. Unfortunately, im not an expert on the actual figures, so i'll leave that to your research.

(and btw, this does not include the wars that America wages for the sake of oil, or the military bases. Tell me this: How much does it cost American taxpayers to station in the Persian Gulf? and would they be there, were it not for oil?)

2) I agree that EV subsidies dont make sense for rich peiople (read: Tesla buyers). But I don't mind them for poorer folks (ie, if your income is below a certain level).

3) EV could be run on 100% coal fired electricity, and that would STILL make it (and the battery itself) more environemtanlly friendly and less costly than oil. With oil, you must:

- inspect the site to determine prospect, best tech to use, and any local governments to bribe/invade/suppress. Ecuador and Nigeria come to mind.

- transport it via supertankers and oil pipes (which themselves require human expertise, constant maintenance, not to mention sabotage concerns)

- store it before refinery process

- refine it (which itself is a whole host of manpower, research, cost, and time and land)

- transport the refined products to all the tiny little gas stations around ....well, the entire world (and btw? those oil tank trucks themselves require fuel, drivers, traffic congestion, maintenance, you name it)

- those gas stations, btw? they require more manpower, maintenance, and safety inspection, land clearance, countless regulations.

- gas cars from everywhere, are required to be driven by their owners to waste 5-10 minutes of their lives (this does not include the time spent driving there). Don't forget, fuel needed to drive there, because you can't 'fuel up' at home.

- oh and i haven't even got to the part about pollution byproducts that are produced in each of these steps.

at every. single. step, whether we talk of 1) cost (to taxpayers), 2) time wasted from your daily lives, 3) environemntal cost, 4) human cost (a la wars and supporting oil kleptocracies like left wing Venezuela or right wing SA), 5) energy efficiency, etc etc, EVs win, and they dont just win, but they win by a tremendous margin.

Yes, i love my micra, but let us not get blinded by the "batteries are less green than oil" myth, or the "subsidized EV" massive hypocrisy